Peak Lesbian

Carol from the Peak Lesbian podcast drops in with a no‑BS breakdown of what’s actually shaping modern lesbian identity—the internalized homophobia we don’t admit to, the cultural erasure we’re told isn’t happening, and the community spaces that keep getting squeezed by louder movements. Join us for this candid Lesbian Take. 

Check out Carol's interview with Debbi, a late in life lesbian who stuck with her partner through detransition: Listen to I Just See You As A Woman

Check Out Carol's Substack HERE

Be part of the movement to rebuild Lesbian Community and Media; leave a review to support this podcast, and subscribe for new episodes. 

To support M.C., check out her books HERE

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:10

Carol is the host of the Peak Lesbian Podcast. I've gotten to know her over the last little while. And I thought it'd be really awesome to have her here on the podcast to chat. Just want to say thank you, Carol, for joining me today. Thank you for having me. Maybe before we jump into the questions, is there anything you wanted to share about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Um, I some people might find this strange, but I always like to share my age because I think age does matter when you kind of figuring out where someone's coming from. So I'm 46 and uh lesbian, and I've been out for God, since I was probably 20 years old. And I've been with the same woman. I've been married for like 25 years and have a kid and a house and dogs and everything. So I'm very, I'm very settled. I'm a very settled lesbian. 25 years. Wow. 25 years, yeah. That's amazing. The time goes by really fast though. It does. It really does. It's kind of weird. Uh, me and my wife were talking the other night, and I was talking about how I don't know if my lack of desire to travel and do things has to do with like some anxiety I have about it, or the fact that I am just really don't feel like doing it because it seems exhausting to do. And I said, my wife's like, yeah, maybe when you're when you're in your your early 50s or when you're in your 50s, you have to kind of negotiate travel with like comfort. And I was like, shit, I am gonna be in my 50s really soon. It kind of freaked me out. I was like, oh shit. I honestly, honestly, when I was when I was a youth, when I was in my teen years and early 20s, I never thought I would live this long. For real? Yeah, for real.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Never thought I'd live this long. You want to hear something? I don't know if this is sad, but like I also viewed 50 as like very old or whatever. But I I always told everybody, I was like, I don't want to get old. I want to die at 60. That's what I used to tell people. Because I had a I had an image of my head what 60 was, and I didn't like it. I was like, it seems like it hurts. You have to take all these pills.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

It can. Let me tell you though, the the the pain and the pills, they come on slowly. It just recently mean when I finally bought the whole like pill organizer. Um, I think that's a very, that's a very like turning point in your life when you're like, oh, I need a pill organizer now. So yes, the pills sneak up on you. I remember my grand, my grandmother having like a whole handful of pills she took three times, three times a day. And I remember as a kid going, Jesus Christ, you know, but the older you get, you know, it's it sneaks up on you. Pretty soon you're taking a whole handful of pills, and you're like, Yeah, it is what it is. And the aches and pains, they they sneak up on you too.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

And the teeth, man, that also freaked me out. The teeth. I remember one time I was young, I went in my grandma's, my great-grandmother's washroom, and there were teeth in in a cup, and I freaked, I freaked the fuck out.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

The dentures. Yeah. Well, we we also in our in our early 40s, we started having some more serious tooth problems. You know, we went most of our lives not really going to the dentist that much, and we started having some issues, and we were like, oh man, we gotta fucking get our shit together. Because we don't I wouldn't want to lose my teeth, you know. So it's like a turning point where we're super on it with our teeth now because we're like, you gotta start thinking about that shit when you hit 40 and lose your teeth, you know. Well, you have a great smile. Thank you. Yes, I I think I had good genetics for for my teeth, to be honest. I think that's kept me because I did not take care of my teeth for most of my life.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

I'm starting to get a lot of sensitivity and all types of everything. So, but now I I I want to live as old as I can. Like, so I haven't had a change of heart.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Yeah, really, you really do adjust as you get older. It's not you really start to appreciate different things and you do slow down and you start to appreciate kind of slower things. I mean, and I think having a kid too, it gives you something more to kind of live for and do, in my opinion. You know, for me at least, it's like I want to be here as long as possible for him. So it takes that self-centeredness away from you a little bit, I think, when you're when you're a parent. It should at least, if you're a good parent, I think.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I don't know if we're gonna have kids, but we have a dog.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Dogs are great. Yeah. We have two dogs, and I've always had dogs, and I always want to have dogs. And we pretty much made the decision that we'll always have at least two dogs from now on, because we had one for a long time and she's just a little bit of a stress case. I think dogs gotta have a buddy.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

I think they do need to have a buddy, but it's just we've talked about it, it's just so much harder to get a dog somebody to watch the dog if you go somewhere. Um, but I don't know, who knows? I I do think my my dog would be so thrilled to have a little sister. They would be so cute together.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Yeah, I mean, I saw I saw a big difference with our with our little dog. She's old though. Um she's like, she's an old lady already, and the new one is a is young. Um she's like two years old, and the other one is like ten. So, you know, she's a little the old one, Poppy, she's a little grouchy with with the young one a bit, but they love each other. They sleep together and they play and stuff. And when when Molly gets a little rout too too rambunctious, Poppy will be like, eh, that's enough. Yeah. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

But let's jump into the questions. Something that we've been talking about, you know, a little offline, and you also interviewed me, was internalized homophobia and how it can manifest and negatively impact lesbians. In your opinion, how does internalized homophobia distort truths lesbians tell about themselves? And what damage does that do, you think, over time?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Yeah, I want to first say that I think most people misunderstand what internalized homophobia is. Um, I think that people think they'll be aware of it. And in my experience, you're not aware of it. That's why it's called internalized. So I think a lot of decisions that some lesbians will make is really coming from internalized homophobia, but they don't recognize it as such. Uh for me, I'll use my own experience because it's easier than trying to make an assumption about somebody else. But for me, you know, the the idea to transition or the belief uh that I was had a male brain and a female body came from internalized homophobia. It really did, and internalized misogyny, right? But the homophobia part definitely, this idea that I was somehow not a normal woman or um was a wrong kind of woman because I'm butch and because I like women and because I'm a lesbian. And uh but if you would have asked me, you know, in my twenties or even thirties, if I had internalized homophobia, I'd have been like, oh no, no, I'm fine. I'm I'm proud to be gay. I I wasn't though. I mean, there was lots of little things that that popped up for me that made me feel like I wanted to hide, that made me feel like I didn't want people to see me. And I think that's that's really hard to walk through the world, especially as a Butch woman. And people because people will look at you, people will misgender you, people will give you shit. That's really hard to walk through the world, and you're going to get internalized homophobia and just you're gonna get really down on yourself. I think you can, especially if you come from not the most solid upbringing. Like I came from a very traumatic upbringing. So like I didn't have the resources to deal with being shit on when I got older for being a lesbian and being um butch, gender non-conforming or whatever. But I think it can come from religion, it can come from your family, it can come from society. I think it comes from all those things. And I even think it affects decisions like when I was much younger. Um, you know, I've always been butch, and but when I was much younger, I used to make a lot of rules around what it meant to be butch. Like I didn't I wanted to wear a certain shirt or something, but I was like, oh, but the color's purple, the color's pink, and that I don't want to like draw that attention to me because I'm trying I try to distance myself from anything feminine that I categorize as feminine or for women. Instead of just like, I like the shirt. Who gives a shit? But I had these rules and it came from, I believe came from that. Or like even I would dictate the kind of sex I could have. I'd be like, oh, I I should only be having this kind of sex because only butch women do this in bed. They don't do the other things in bed or whatever. Even though I was fine, I I wanted to do other things, but I'd limit myself. And also, you know, gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria for me came out of that internalized homophobia. You know, not being comfortable with my own body, not being comfortable being touched or not being comfortable just living as a woman. So I don't know if that if that answered your question about it, but I think it can be different for each person. And I think unless you unless you can start to recognize it yourself somehow, for me, I couldn't. I had to like bang my head against the wall and realize what I was doing wasn't working, and then start to see a therapist once I kind of figured out that I needed help to kind of pick these things apart and realize where they came from.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

No, definitely. I would agree. I think it can be really tough. It can be really tough to figure out shit like growing up, especially if you're a lesbian who doesn't conform to like sexist stereotypes. Like uh we have that kind of the same in terms of it lived experience. Me, until I was maybe 19, I did not pass for female, even though I did I just didn't. And you know, I got serred all the time or I got called a boy all the time. Something else that would also happen is girls would also like they'd hit on me because they thought I was a boy. And I'd be like, no, I'm a girl, actually. And they wouldn't believe me. And they would antagonize me, try to like lift up my shirt to see I had a bra or whatever. You know, I don't know if you experienced any of that, but I think for me, like the reaction could have been two different things. I used to take a little bit of pleasure in that. I was like, oh, okay. Cause I thought I was attract like for me, it it reinforced my I was like the more masculine I looked, the more attractive I felt, if that even made sense. And after I read Tipping the Velvet, it was something switched in me, and I was like, I actually want to be a little bit feminine too. I want to lean into that a little bit more. And so I don't know if that has anything to do with internalized homophobia, but I think for me, maybe it did, because the only way I could see myself maybe for a long time with women is if I looked a certain way.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Yeah, I think it is. I think it is, or in a misogyny too. I mean, they run so close together, they're they're like they're kissing cousins, you know. Yeah. I actually, you know, I f I just finished that book because you mentioned it. Yeah, I bought it and I read it. And yeah, you know, now that I'm done with it, I was really I wasn't sure if I was gonna like it. But now that I was done with it, I'm like, it's an okay book. It's an okay book. I I recommend reading it. Um the only thing I really, really didn't like is the the the parts about her having sex with dudes. That the throws me out so much. I'm like, did they have did she have to put that in there? Like I just cannot with that. So I it was super, I did not like that part. Um Yeah, I think like for me it wasn't it wasn't like penetrative so no, but I almost I'm sorry, but I feel like oral is more invasive than penetrative sex.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Yeah, like I think both of it's really disgusting, but I think that it made sense in the in the context of the story and the context of like where she was at and like to get money.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Well, yeah, but I also think what I liked, what I thought was interesting about the book though, coming from an outside, the book was written in the 90s, I think the late 90s. And um, I could see the bleeding in of what I would see later in trans mask and trans-identified women already popping up in that book. This this kind of um this kind of fetishizing of gay men and then uh wanting to be with gay men as men because it gave them some kind of fat feeling of control or some kind of kick. And I think it comes from control. I've seen numerous women who, for all intents and purposes, said they were lesbian and lived as lesbians for a very long time transition and be with gay men or have sex with men. And some of that is the, well, a good chunk of that is just the testosterone. But the other part of that is I think there is this like psychological weird shit happening there. I wish it was explored more. I find it fascinating. But the book touches on that, and I'm almost like, I wondered if she was already seeing this or if this is something that was bubbling around in the 90s. I mean, I know, I know it was. San Francisco is the hotbed for this, and it was already starting back then with with, you know, so coming from the trans and detrans perspective, I look at lesbian and lesbian culture kind of through that lens somewhat, and I see a lot of these things that were popping up that I guess down the road became harmful. You know, like so. I don't know. I just I was tying those in there with the book, wondering if there wasn't something there.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

But yeah, I think like for me, I viewed it as sex work and that it was like, well, I need to make money. And I did sort of also, but now that you've touched on like the power dynamic type of thing, like I'm gonna do that.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

But she really got off on it, but not got off sexually, but she really like power-wise, kind of got off on this idea that they were seeing her as a man that they didn't know. Like it was a big thing with her. That's kind of she did it more for that, I think, than she did the money, to be honest. It seemed like it came from more of that place, and I found that fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Yeah, the lack of consent, technically, like it's it's an interesting thing too. Yeah, I think that it's something that I sort of like just like glossed over, to be honest. It's something that didn't really register to me. But now that you pointed it out, I'm like, wow, like this is this is interesting. I should actually probably revisit that and see now if it gives me more of an icky feeling.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

I also I also saw it as a form of self-harm. And she was self-harming, right? Like, and I could see, I could see how that happened. And I'm really glad that she seemed to come out of it. Spoiler for anybody who's not read this 20-some-year-old book, but or 30, maybe. It's like 30 years old. It's like 30, I don't know. But like, you know, I'm glad that she came out of it and actually seemed to like find herself again and become a decent person. Also got to keep in mind that she this is from a very young person's perspective. Like, she's 19 when all this starts, and she's 25 when it finally ends. So, like, I had to keep that in mind too. Because when you're in your 40s, you look at this shit and go, Well, what are you doing? Stop it. Like, for the most part, I found the character like self-centered and kind of an atrocious person for most of the book, but I feel like she maybe turned it around at the end.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

She learned some lessons, you know. I think she's she's a narcissist who's all about her. Like, I see some dynamics of today's world, like the meism. What about meism? I want to do this, therefore I am going to do this. I don't care if it harms you, family. I don't care if you need me to work in the restaurant. This is what I want to do.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Because here's the thing: she came from a decent house, a decent home with people who loved her. She didn't have to do prostitution, she could have gone home. Her family would have taken her home. I would have gone home. There are times I did go home when I was young and screwed up, even though my mom was a piece of shit. I still would rather go home than like do something else more damaging. So, like, I that's the first thing I thought. I was like, she actually has a decent home and she's out here doing this. Like, yeah. But anyways, the the book the book is um interesting and definitely worth a read.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

It's my favorite book of all time.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Really? For for me, it took I I took a a very important message out of it for me, and it helped form me into the person I am today. And you know, I think if a book can transform you that way and it it's a book you keep coming back to, I think that's powerful. And I haven't read a another book that has touched me in that way, like made me want to change who I am as a person. That book is how I got comfortable with my femininity, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yeah, I do like that they that she was able to kind of go both both ways wherever she felt comfortable towards the end and not sticking for one thing or the other. I was surprised by that because usually these stories tend to be very rigid with the the individual if they're cast in a butch kind of light, you know? Yeah. So I I appreciated that. I thought it had a good message of, you know, you're a woman with another woman, do whatever you're comfortable with. There's no rules with this. I mean, I've always that's my big thing is there's no rules here. Don't get too caught up in the rules.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Yeah. There there really are no rules to lesbian. There shouldn't be, but other than, like, in my opinion, the only rule for lesbianism is that you're an exclusively same-sex attracted female. Like, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Well, we we say there's no rules, but I look from Butch perspective, there is actually quite a few rules around being Butch. And I I've never particularly cared for those rules. What are these rules? Because I don't I don't know these rules. I just Well, these these rules were kind of maybe un they're unwritten rules and they're kind of a social understanding, but I ran across them very early when I first came out. And the rule is that Butch women don't like penetrative sex.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Is that a rule though? Is that a rule? Like I I I say I say this as somebody I am a like a touch me knot. Like I am stoned. Uh-huh. But like, is that actually a rule though?

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Yeah. Yeah. I'm talking about my experience with coming out. Now, this may vary. Your experience, okay. From and I that's why I try to use I statements because um some women will hear it and go, oh yes, uh, that was my experience too, and some might not. But my experience of coming out in the early 2000s in my local community was that the butch women, it was like, you don't do that. And if they found out that a butch woman was into penetrative sex, they'd make fun of her behind her back. Oh, that's and basically basically kind of take away her butch card and think of her as, well, she's not really butch because she likes this particular kind of sex. And a butch has to be the top, and you know, butches have to have a certain like personality and they have to be a certain way. And I don't know. It's just there is just the sex part was a really big like I think that was detrimental to me in my youth. And I didn't have enough of, I think, self-esteem to go, that's dumb.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

You know, I was so super just beat down that anything that that I felt was shaming me or telling me I did something wrong, I would just be like, you know, a wet noodle with instead of going, oh, that's dumb. But that was pretty detrimental to me to early on because then it made me feel like I couldn't be as open with sex as I might have been had I not had a lot of those early influences of you don't do that or you do this or whatever. And then also there's the other side of it where oftentimes women get shamed for liking to be the top or for being in a particular thing. They'll all you'll get it both ways, right? You'll get shamed for this way or shamed for that way, depending on who you're running across. And I just it's so tiring and ridiculous. I think people need to stop that altogether and let individual folks like what they like and start telling them telling them that you have to the basically I don't like the comment butch women don't do this or butch women do this.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Well, not all. So maybe we just don't have those kind of conversations or expectations.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Yeah. Like I had a I had a conversation with Stone Butch Disco, which was really interesting. I think maybe 90% of things like we kind of agree on, but I have a more open interpretation. Like I think in Toronto, it it the culture here has never been that strict, maybe where I'm from. But for me, what Butch is, is it's just an energy. Like if you are just naturally more masculine, and I'm not saying it's not a performance, it's just this is just how you are. Everybody knew that you were different. Like, I I can't tell about you. I didn't have a closet. Some people are have closets. I didn't have a closet. Everybody knew I was gay since I was probably a toddler. Okay, like I've just always been the way that I am. I've walked a certain way. My partner was saying that if I'm walking down the street, I don't move out of the way for anybody. Apparently, that is a thing dudes do. You know, I walk a certain way, I dress a certain way, I stand a certain way, I talk a certain way, I just navigate the world a certain way, which society would say is very masculine. Exactly. So for and it's not an act, it's not a performance, it's nothing, it's just that is just how I am. And because of that, there have been a lot of things that are really difficult in my life. So for 20 years, I for a very long time I couldn't use women public restrooms because I didn't want to make people uncomfortable. For for a very long time, I would get made fun of. But I don't know. I'm also somebody that I I found that to work in my advantage, and I don't know. Of like I had to become a bully sometimes to not be bullied. So it's sort of like you navigate the world very differently because you already know that the world knows you're different. And I think that experience in and of itself is butch. How you experience sex is completely bes beyond the point because I do think that two butch people could be together. Okay. So like how would that how would you even describe that then?

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

You know what I mean? Like, I do think that two masculine women, lesbians, can come together. And then what are you gonna say about that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Yeah. I I I agree with you. I think we're on the same page with that. My wife thinks the same way. Like my wife is femme. That's that's she's always said that. Uh, we don't take the labels too super strict, but like, you know, they're good for identifying a particular way of being. And she's femme, and she's always like Butch women. And, you know, we were just talking about it a while ago, and she was just like, I was like, you know, what is it? And she was like, it's an energy, it's just a way. I mean, she's like, you could put on a dress and pumps and have long hair and you'd still be butch.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Like, you know, there's some female. There's some femmes. There's some femmes, and I'm like, there's a butch woman under that under that dress. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. I think it's a and it's for me, it's a energy. It's just an energy, it is just how you are. And I think that there's a lot of people who want to be like that, and so they are performing.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

And I think it's those people who are are sticklers for all of these rules. You're right. I think, yeah, absolutely. I think I think there is some, there's there can be performing. And I've seen the performing, and maybe that's the difference is the performing versus you just being who you are. Like I, you know, I prefer men's clothing and always have. Since I was old enough to choose my own clothing, I wanted to choose the boys and men's, and I don't know why. Um I that's just the clothing I prefer. I'm not choosing it to like express some kind of gender identity or express something and anything. I just find those clothes more comfortable and more my style. And if I wanted to analyze it, and I have analyzed it because I'm a full I was a philosophy major, so I tend to overanalyze everything. When I've analyzed this, when I was coming out of transition and analyzing, you know, the clothing situation and radical feminism was feeding into this. I I really looked at women's clothes and men's clothes, and I could pick apart certain things that I could see why I wouldn't like women's clothes. And when the one big thing for me is the cut. Most women's clothes are cut to show off as much body as possible. I'm not comfortable with that. I want full, if I want full sleeves, I don't want sleeves clear up fucking here. Like the short sleeves, you know, even the women's short sleeves are shorter than normal short sleeves and the it's more low cut and it's more tight fitting, and the everything, everything is about fitting snugger and showing more skin. And no, thank you. I want my body covered more. I want to be comfortable. So yeah, I'm gonna that you I could point that out as one of the reasons I don't like women's clothes. If I could find the same clothing and it's labeled women's, I'd buy it. I don't care what the label is necessarily. It's just that they don't make those clothes in the women's section. That's not to say I don't, I don't really, I don't really I love wearing a suit too, though. Like I love getting dressed. Getting dressed up to me is wearing the suit and the tie and everything. It's just the way it is.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Yeah. Like I think that's part of it. It's the sensory feeling of the clothes, like when they're cut a certain way. But for me, it's also like it makes me look stupid. That's how I feel. Because I just I just naturally do not look good in those types of clothing. Like, I do not look good in dresses, I do not look good in women's clothing. You could just look at me and it looks off. It's like, what the fuck? Like you're you look like a freak show. Like, what are you doing? It just does not look good on me. And I am I'm a little narcissistic. And so for me, I have to be happy with how I look in the mirror, or else everything crumbles. I don't know what that means. Maybe I need to see a therapist, they'll tell me what's wrong with me.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Everybody wants to feel good and look good, right? And if you look in the mirror and and you know, your clothing's making you feel like a pile of shit. Well, find the clothing that works for you, whether it's fit, style, whatever it is, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

I s I would have a tantrum. My mom would try to put me in a dress at four years. I would have a tantrum. I'm like, no. I'd crying, snot, you know. I think the last time they forced me in a dress, I was like 16 for my uncle's wedding, and it was just the worst feeling ever. I'm worst feeling ever.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

The last time I wore a skirt, I was 15. I was forced into private school.

unknown 27:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

I'm so sorry for you. I feel it. I feel it. It didn't last long though. I actually refused to go. I was like, no, you're I told my mom you'll have to hog tie me and drag me in there. So let's go. Let's do it. She was like, fuck you then. Don't go to school. I'm like, fine, I won't go to school. And I didn't go to school.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

For some people, in terms of the rules, I'll just resay it because I think it's important. I think it's the rules are coming from the people who are probably not. Maybe they're even fam, you know, and are fighting against that.

unknown 27:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Like all of these. I've known, like, in a lot of ways, like before my wife got with me, most of her, like her girlfriend before me was kind of, she was a tennis player and was kind of androgynous. Had long hair though, but was kind of that androgynous chapstick dike, kind of, kind of sporty, sporty dike, you know?

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Um, and then her girlfriend in high school was very feminine. So, like, my wife, even being a femme, for the most part, was the first real butch she was with, even though that's what her preference was. She'd always end up with bisexual women, you know, fucking around with bisexual women or other femmes or even straight women. So, like, my wife, it's interesting. She has, she definitely has some top energy about her. And then not too. And I find that it's, you know, because and that's that's I think most people do. We have both, right? We have some top speed, we have some bottom energy.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

We all got it. It's okay. Most people do. Like, do my my partner, okay, on a lot of things, she is the lead and will tell me what to do. Like, she orders me around. I can't there's nothing I can do about it. If she tells me I have to do something, I'm gonna do it. I think that she has more boss energy than me. I might look a certain way, but I feel like she has more of that.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

That all I would have to say that generally speaking, not gonna say all, but generally speaking, my experience has been that femmes tend to be bossy and yes, the boss energy is a femme thing. And like, I was just I was just saying this to a woman I interviewed last night before we we didn't record it, I think it was just beforehand. We were talking about butch femme stuff, and she was like, S I was telling her how everybody that we've met, strangers or people don't know us, and that's not family, will automatically make the assumption that I'm the mean one and she's the nice one. And I'm like, it's the exact reverse. She will salve a bitch. I am the nice one, okay? I like a strong cut-a-bitch femme. I I think it's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

I love, I love a really cutthroat, bitchy femme. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

I love the as long as you're not directing that at an abusive, toxic way towards me, obviously. But my wife uses it for good, generally.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Other people we don't like, people we mutually don't like. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Or as you or as the bad bitch that backs you up. Like there was a few years ago we were in Home Depot and it was Christmas time. We were looking for one of those trees, and this really obnoxious straight dude with his teenage son like ran into our cart and was just being a fucking asshole. And of course, me, my mouth always leads before my brain catches up. And so I'm like automatically, I'm just like, fuck you, buddy. What the fuck? And then he gets in my face, he automatically wants to fight me. And I'm not backing down and I'm thinking you're gonna get your ass kicked. And I see something bobbing behind me, and I realize it's my wife. She is like ready to go. I'm like, I feel like she's like a pimple back there. I was like, oh, if this guy pops off, he is gonna really regret it. But his son ended up intervening and just being like, let's go, let's go, let's go. I felt bad for his son. His son was probably, his son was like, oh God, you know. I was like, this guy probably does this shit all the time, you know. But yeah, I like that. She she's there. She's she's my she's my backup for when I get myself in trouble.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Something else that we we sort of touched on and talked about was lesbian erasure. That term has been thrown around a lot lately. I'm gonna say that I've been using it quite a bit. A lot of people don't really seem to actually know what it is or can explain it. But I was wondering if pulling from some of your conversations that you've had on your podcast, because I thought there were really some really great examples there that demonstrate lesbian erasure. I I was just wondering what are some of the strongest examples of lesbian erasure that you can talk about that you've seen or heard about?

SPEAKER_00 31:23

I think the strongest, the strongest example of it is the tran is transition. I think the transitioning of butch women is the biggest lesbian erasure I've seen. I think the second one is mudding of terms and being uh inclusive, quote with quotation marks here. Being inclusive, which means you have the word doesn't mean anything anymore. So lesbian can mean a guy who thinks he's a woman. It can mean a bisexual who really feels romantically towards women but has sex with men too. You know, and it just goes on and on from there, not not having the language be clear with boundaries. And the other thing that I think really erases it doesn't erase lesbians. We exist, we've always existed and we will always exist. But what ex erases us in the social sphere and the social consciousness is not respecting our boundaries and not respecting our ourself and our identities. Like, for example, if a lesbians went to get together for any kind of organiz uh any kind of like uh festival or any kind of gathering, it has to be underground now. We can't advertise, hey, you know, camp out, lesbian camp out, uh female only. If that was that would be, they would be shot down. They would be, I mean, you would they would be protested. I know for a fact that a lot, a lot of lesbians have gone underground. Yep. A lot of or a lot of groups have gone underground and they have to, they have to make sure that they like know the lesbian, do background checks on her and everything. She has, you know, it's she has to be vetted before she's even allowed to know where this place is. Yep. And that pisses me off so much because I remember when it wasn't that way. Me too. I remember when it wasn't that way. And it was even just more recently, there were some stories coming out from different events that are pretty locked down and only supposed to be for women and women-born women, meaning female, that, you know, the men are still sneaking in there. The men are still sneaking in there and they're still trying to disrupt it. Yeah. And um, it's it's unfortunate. And I don't think you're ever gonna really keep men out. Once you get too big, they're just gonna be there. But I think definitely the the social contract has been broken. Yeah. The social contract's been broken. People, people don't a lot of people do not respect, including lesbians, do not respect lesbian spaces and lesbian individual, you know, our identities. And I use identity not in like a anybody can identify as something they're not. I mean identity as let's make a label for this group that exists.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

I agree. For me, lesbian erasure, the biggest issue is language. These attempts to remove it or change it from female homosexuality over to non-men loving non-men, that that pissed me off so much. I was just like, what the fuck? I'm not a non-man. Why are we centering men in this definition? Center it is so fucking ridiculous. The way I see it is if you're a female homosexual, you decide that you don't want to be a woman, but you still want to be a lesbian, you're just gonna have to put up with the fact that lesbianism is tied to womanhood. That's it. I don't care. Technically, you're female, and you're as long as you're a homosexual and the hormones haven't made it so that you're doing stuff with dudes, you can say that you're a lesbian, in my opinion. I don't care because technically you're a female. There's no changing that. But you come in here and you try to change the the definition of what a lesbian is to fit you. I have a problem with that. You don't belong. The moment you try to bring that lesbophobia and whatever the hell's going on with you into lesbianism, I have a problem with that. You don't belong, in my opinion. So I'm cool with pretty much everybody who is a female homosexual. I don't care if you you adopt non-binary or whatever, as long as you're a female homosexual, I don't care. But these attempts to call us non-men, like that is what piqued me. I think that's the number one thing that piqued me. I was so pissed off because I was like, we've been so nice to y'all. We've been so what what what the hell did we do to deserve this this this this disrespect? It's so disrespectful. And these males calling themselves lesbians, it's so disrespectful. It's angering.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

No, I I agree with you. I mean, I don't care what what you do as far as cosmetic surgery and transition and stuff, like as long as you were it's not what you're doing necessarily. If you're a female homosexual, you I don't care if you're in the group. I don't, that don't doesn't matter to me. I would the only thing is I I take issue, I think, with the ideology because I think it's harmful to lesbians and especially gender non-conforming homosexuals. But if you're not forcing me to believe your ideology, that then that's great. We can respect each other. Just like I'm not gonna like hang around with you or respect somebody who is a particular religion trying to force me into their religion either. Like, don't do that shit. Like I already told you my boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Yeah, it's just so nefarious because it just sort of snuck up on us. That it it sort of crept to in and then it just became the norm, and then it became the well, if you don't agree 100%, you're a bigot, sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

I just think it it transformed into a to a way that it really makes it very difficult to coexist.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yeah, and it got here because of of the ideology, these, this, this ideological belief that someone disagreeing with you or someone using words that hurts your feelings can kill you.

unknown 37:18

Right?

SPEAKER_00 37:19

They started to do that. They started to, well, they really started to equate, and trans activists really, really did this hard. They equated rejection of their identity with suicide. So if you reject somebody, you're forcing them into suicide. So they started to equate rejecting me or not believing what I do with my death. And it's like, no, bro, you're responsible for your decisions. People, people get called horrible names all the time. People get told they're piece of shit every fucking day. But like, you have to take responsibility for your own mental health and well-being. They put all that responsibility on society. And I think that's we see that a lot with all kinds of stuff now. That's like people say someone doesn't agree with him, they suddenly come out and feel unsafe. I'm like, well, first of all, you just redefined what safety is. What do you mean safe? Someone, someone made you feel uncomfortable? Someone pissed you off. That's fine. Are you safe? You're probably safe though. They're not gonna hurt you physically, they hurt your feelings.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

That's the same thing. Society needs to grow a backbone, is sort of what how I see it. It's like it needs to grow a backbone. When I was growing up, the things that you just had you just had I don't care. I I am old, and I think that that is also part of lesbian arranger because a lot of older lesbians, this is this is a problem with lesbians. We get, and I'm I'm part of this problem, okay? So I'm just saying I take accountability too. But we meet our partner and we just retreat in a way that gay men don't. And I think that a lot of that wisdom that the younger generation of lesbians needed wasn't around. Yeah. To sort of be like, knock it off. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 39:03

I think though that was the double-edged sword of getting more equality. I mean, if a lot of groups that have been discriminated discriminated against, a lot of minority groups, they they get very strong community almost because they're forced into it in a way, right? That's the only place that they can, you know, there's gay neighborhoods or there used to be gay neighborhoods or gay districts, right? So of course you built really strong community because you you were all kind of forced together because everybody else hated you. But once that starts to let out and you get to come out of there, then it's not such a strong draw to remain in there. And I think that's I like that. I like the that we have more equality. I like that I have more freedom to do and go where I want to. But I think one of the downsides was the loss of some community and then uh this vacuum, the trans thing kind of came in right at that point and just, you know, it trans just double down on like misogyny and homophobia. Like it just doubled down on it, you know, and and gender conformity. It doubled down on gender conformity, especially. So now you have young teenage girls or whatever who are are, you know, like to wear boys' clothes or something or maybe like to cut their hair. And suddenly everybody's going, Are you really a boy? Are you really trans? You must be trans. No, a girl can't just wear whatever she wants and cut her hair. Like, when did we jump to this thing? Or a feminine boy? Is he trans?

SPEAKER_01 40:26

You know, they they need to really stop with that because the science supports that a lot of people after puberty, the the hard part is puberty. But we all but but the cure is going through the pure puberty. Most and and usually these people are gay or bisexual or lesbians, and that's why it's even more confusing, right? And it just I feel very strongly about it because if I was grown up right now, if I was a teenager right now, who knows what would I would be put on this pathway. They would chop off my tits and put me on puberty blockers, like and then the there there's science that shows that that really has a negative impact on you. What if I wanted to have kids later on? What if you know what I mean? Because now that I've come into myself and it took me 30 years to really love being a woman, like it took me 30 years to to break free from the internalized misogyny. You know, but once you start taking these things so young, there is no going back. So I just don't understand. If I have to be 18 years old to get get tattoos, how can how can this happen? Is sort of my thought.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Yeah. Well this got to this point because people were brainwashed into thinking if they didn't transition their kids that the kids would kill themselves. Suicide has been used as a as um blackmail, basically super, super heavy by trans activists, and I think that's so shitty. And anybody who's had anything to do with somebody who's mentally ill and a drug addict, you'll know how they they love to hang suicide over you. I've had family members that did that shit. It's toxic. Anybody who does that, it's toxic behavior.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Well, I think I think we are waking up. Like I think the world is waking up, and I think that it's going to be a giant scandal. And what's unfortunate is that because they pushed this on kids, I I do think that, you know, there's gonna be like a a very big correction. A very, very big correction. I say unfortunate, I mean unfortunate for the adults who probably want to get surgeries and stuff. Because I the way I see it is if you're adult, whatever. You do what you want to do. But I do think that because of this, there's I I I I've heard of a lot of lawsuits coming up. I think there's gonna be a a giant correction on how they're doing. Like the pendulum will completely swing the other way.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Maybe. Or I think there's just gonna be other, there's probably just gonna be other problems that pop off in the in in our worlds, in the space of Western world, where people are gonna go, you know, this is really small potatoes compared to all the bullshit that's going on right now. Because I think the trans, the other reason the trans thing got so popular is people had nothing to do. People had it's it's like we're just too bored, you know. We need some kind of fucking identity. We're too privileged in many ways. Just why you see it pop off a lot more in the upper class and among whites than you do among different like working class to poor who are not white, generally speaking. It definitely definitely seems to be a class thing too. You see a lot more of the college kids doing this than you see the kids that got to go out there and work.

unknown 43:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

It's because they got too much time. All right, kids. Yeah. Something else that we were talking about, and we kind of touched on it already, that the lesbians have to go underground. Like, I've even been looking at okay, if I wanted to create a lesbian only social app, I've I had to like Google to see if I could get sued if I did this. Because that's just sort of where we're at, where lesbians can't have anything. But we're talking about community. And so let's say a million dollars landed in your lap, like today, to execute a plan to rebuild the lesbian community. Where would you start, Carol?

SPEAKER_00 44:22

I would probably start by having like a like a lesbian community center, basically. Uh or a little like hangout, maybe even a private club. I think a private club might be the way to go because I think you have more legal rights that way to exclude certain people. But the biggest thing I've always thought, and this is one of those like if I won the lotto dreams, I'd love to buy a huge piece of property and have events where it is definitely controlled and the lesbians can come and feel safe. And I would have no problem advertising it wide and ensuring that I don't care what the comeback is, because I'll have security. You want to try to roll up on my property, you'll get your ass kicked. You'll get thrown out. Um, you can protest all the fuck you want, but this is this is our space, and I draw the line here. I would love to have the money, the fuck you money. I'd love to have fuck you money, basically.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

Yeah, that's what I want to like the whole Mitch Fest thing, it angers me so much. Yeah. You know, that was I think if that were to happen today, let's say we Mitch Fest was still around, I do think there would be another side, though. Like I think we're at a point where people are kind of fed up where there would be they would have Camtrans, but on the other side there would also be lesbians who are fed up.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

Like the Well, we already have events that are quasi that way. Like there's events that are still taking place in Michigan that are basically smaller versions of what Mitchfest was. And they they try to be very locked down, but again, you can only get so big and the men are going to sneak in there. And it's this they they have the same problem that Mitchfest had. Whereas, you know, Mitchfest's policy really was always to not question somebody's sex or gender. You just you can't really do it because once you start doing it, it leak it can lead down a pretty rough road where you're questioning, like, you know, something Lisa Vogel said. I don't know if you ever read her book, but I did, and I found it very interesting when she talks about all this. Not, she's not super talks about the trans stuff super a lot. She just talks about her experience with it very briefly. Um, but she did say, you know, that very early on with Mitch Fest, they recognized that a lot of women were really questioning um butch women a lot, that they weren't women, and especially black women who were masculine presenting. They were getting black women were getting questioned a lot more than white women about their sex. And she was like, we can't do that. And then so you can understand why you can't do that. But so that goes back to the social contract. And that's a that's a hard, so it's a hard, it's a hard line to walk. Mitchfest always had a social contract, and even then that wasn't good enough for transactivists.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Mitchfest never said the thing is at Mitch Fest, though, a lot of the times the clothes come off, right? And everybody knows once the clothes come off. I'm sorry, like true. When the clothes come by come off, everybody knows.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

Yeah, and and if in like even like say my case, right? If I was to take my shirt, if someone questioned me and I took my shirt off, I'd at least have the scars to show that I used to have tits there. So you know, but it's I think I think for them it was it was just Mitchfest was always made very well known that they were female-centered. That was the problem they had with it. Because Mitchfest never threw anybody out. Like they're they didn't have a law, a rule about throwing someone else out unless it was obviously there was a dude there who was like walking around with his dick out. Then yeah, you'd get tossed. But lots of lots of uh dudes who were transsexual or whatever were coming in there. They were. They had always they were always there. You can't keep them out. It was, I mean, 5,000 people, women went to this. You're never gonna keep every fucking male male out. But I just think that it's it's it's become so it's become so hard because it's not just that like people focus on the guys that are being creepy, and that's fine, but you have to take into consideration that most of these organizations or these gatherings got brought down by the women themselves. The women that wanted to prop up the dudes pretending to be women, the women that wanted to transition and prop up trans stuff, they were the ones who brought who who really detrimented a lot of these women's spaces. It was the women themselves. And that's unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

But I mean, that's so many lesbians, though, go ahead with these, you know. The way I see it is TQ plus interests are in direct conflict with lesbian interests. But like, because you were touching on it, but why why do you think that lesbians tend to go along with things that really go against us?

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Like it's not in our interests. Well, I don't think it's a lesbian thing, it's the woman thing. Women tend to go along with a lot of things that are against our best interests because women have been socialized to be caretakers and are socialized to shut up and smile and are socialized to be nice. The nice thing is what gets us. The nice thing is the ultimate uh cut to our throat, I think. Women need to really let that go. You don't need to be nice. You don't need to be nice. Boundaries, drawing a boundary and holding it doesn't make you mean. Boundaries are nice, actually. Anyone who's ever had a raised a child understands how important boundaries are. Being a good, supportive, loving parent means that you will set boundaries for your child. You will reprimand your child when they need to be reprimanded. They will hate you sometimes, they will scream at you sometimes, but you know it is for their best interest. And I think that's where women have really gone wrong, and lesbians are no different than any other woman when it comes to that.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

I think that that's a good point. Have you heard of the the science experiment that showed that women who are a bitch will will not get autoimmune diseases?

SPEAKER_00 50:15

I'm not surprised. So autoimmune diseases are so much worse than women, you know?

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Yeah, and they're saying part of it is that because women don't say no and they take on all of these issues from other people. But if you're a bitch and you don't do that, you don't have that problem.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Look at how many women you see in social work. Social work in therapy is overwhelmingly women. It's because it's considered a care, a place where you're caring for people. The care role has been put on women. And some might argue it's a it is a nature thing, maybe to a certain extent, but not nearly the extent our society has put us into different holes with it. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Like, I think it's a socialization.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

It starts It's more social, I think it's more socialization than anything else. But I I think there is some biology there because it just makes sense that there would be. I mean, you got you got the next species gotta keep your next your offspring gotta keep going. If you're a mother, you gotta like have that nurturing thing. But that doesn't mean all women are nurturing. And it doesn't mean all men can't be nurturing. Everybody, every human has the capacity to be unnurturing and nurturing.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about your podcast real quick. Which guest would you say that you've interviewed on the Peak Lesbian podcast left the biggest impression on you? And what moments from that conversation really stayed with you?

SPEAKER_00 51:37

God, that's hard. A lot of my interviews all blur together sometimes. Um, I would think, honestly, I my my interview with Debbie, which was his Jesse Harris' partner, her her interview where she talked about her experience dealing with a partner that was going through detransition as a lesbian. It was, it was very, I wouldn't say super eye-opening because I, you know, me and my wife talked, and my wife's had her own experiences with that, but it was really interesting to see her perspective and hear like her inner thoughts and her emotions and her feelings about going through this and really feeling how much she loved and supported her partner and wanted her partner to be free of the chains of transition as as they were. And you know, Jesse will say that they were chains. Definitely she'll agree with that. And so I, you know, that love. I really I loved the the love that was in that that interview.

SPEAKER_01 52:35

Yeah, that was a very beautiful episode. I will link it in the show notes for everybody. I really, really enjoyed that that episode. There's probably more lesbians than we know who have transitioned and are they want to detransition, but it's like the cost could be huge sometimes. Like you lose your friend group a lot of times.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

Honestly, I you know what I think stops a lot of lesbians from detransitioning though when they when they pretty much feel it's not really there's not been a whole lot of gain from it, is the shame. I think there's a lot of shame. You think is the shame. There's a lot of shame that you that you made the wrong choice. You did you you upended fucking everything for this? You told people they had to call you something different. You changed documents were changed. I mean, it is life. You upend everything. Only to then go, oops, I made a mistake. That is really, really hard for people to do. That takes fucking humbling on a level that most people can't even approach. It did for me. I had to like basically I felt like I was carrying around two heavy bags and I just had to put them down and go, I have to just admit that like I made a mistake, I failed, I don't know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Like it's okay. What's inter it's interesting you say that because like I've been listening to a lot of is it gen spec? Well, these episodes where you have like the parents come on and they're talking, and a lot of them just seem to be like waiting with baited breath breaths, like they're they're waiting for their their child to to to detransition so that they can welcome them.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

And it sounds to me that a lot of the times the support group, if you have one, is there, usually from what Yeah, you have to like I think the most important thing is you have to stay present with the person. There's nothing you can draw boundaries with them, of course. And my wife did very early on. She was only on board with the transition, I would say, for maybe six months. And then she was like, not, but she didn't argue with me about it necessarily. But she did hold her own boundaries. She did hold that you will uh no, I'm not going to say I'm not a lesbian. I'm gonna, if it comes up, I'm gonna absolutely hold that I'm a lesbian. And if that makes people go, what the fuck? They go, what the fuck? But I'm not. I'm not saying I'm straight for you. And uh, you know, I'm not there was there were certain things where she refused to have my name changed on particular documents and stuff. She's like, no, we're not changing your name. Your name's staying on that document the way it is. And I'm glad she did that now. But, you know, she held those boundaries, but she's she still was supportive. She was there for me, and she she did start to kind of push back a little bit at a time, a little bit of truth at a time, you know? And she wouldn't say, You're wrong. She would just be like, Well, I heard someone say this. And she'd put a little grain out there for me to like, you know.

SPEAKER_02 55:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

And I think that was also really helpful for me to kind of come out of it and then have a place to know that I I still could come to. And then when I decided to no longer do that, she was obviously very happy and supportive.

SPEAKER_01 55:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:41

But yeah, you have to stay present.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

You have to stay present. And the other thing too is this narrative that if somebody disagrees with you, they hate you. I hate that because I actually think that if you really love somebody, like you really love somebody, it takes a lot, it takes a lot to to to put yourself out there knowing that you might have a negative reaction from that person because you love them so much that you can't not tell them what you think. So I think that the truest form of love is truth and sharing what you believe. And I I think this these attempts to shut down conversation are just so that's the harmful part, I think. I think there needs to be more conversation. But, you know, I am mindful of your time, and I had one more one last question for you, Carol. When you look ahead, what do you imagine lesbian life and the lesbian community will look like in 10 years? Like, do you feel optimistic about where things are headed? Or do you think the challenges that we're facing today will only get worse?

SPEAKER_00 56:53

No, I'm on the optimistic side. I think it'll get better. And I've I I've said this kind of from the beginning, once I started to kind of speak out on the topic of lesbians, lesbian spaces, transition, the whole thing. It's all it's all wound up into one big ball for me. But I've said this from the beginning. It'll burn itself out because it is a bit of a fad. The whole trans thing, it's a fad. It's a societal fad, and it will burn itself out. No, not completely. There will always exist people who want to transition. I think there probably always has, and a certain extent, people who want to live as the opposite sex, uh, whatever that means. But generally speaking, it's gonna become much less. And uh I am I'm hopeful that lesbian spaces can kind of come about again and that respect can be gained again. Um lesbians are never gonna go away. It will always exist. I mean, that that will always just be the case.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

Yeah. I'm optimistic too, because I think the UK decision was a very big deal. Like a very big deal for the world. And I think laws that inform what society will tolerate. And I think that a lot of laws are gonna change because sex base rights are also rights, like women's rights are women are rights too, right? So I think with that change, I I do I really do think that there will be a change to laws. And I think that people, once the laws are there, people will feel more comfortable saying no. But also I have a little bit of faith because if I could peek, like if me, like I am a certified on-the-fencer about like everything. Like I'm just like I'm somebody who just really tries to see the both sides of each thing. And I I usually try not to have a very firm opinion on things. But I just feel so strongly that what's happening is is not cool. Like the the social contract has been violated and it's just really not cool. And lesbians don't deserve this. And I think the more lesbians wake up, like, so if I was able to wake up, I think a lot more lesbians are gonna wake up too and be like, Exactly what? That's basically it. Because seriously, there's so many of these these bad actors, they're showing us every day that they're not the people we think they are. And I think lesbians will continue to see the bad behavior and see the the homophobia for what it is, like you need to date me because I am a woman. That is not what a lesbian is. We don't date the opposite sex, and I think the more that we see these people trying to force themselves on us, it's gonna be a problem. And more people will wake up.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

I think a lot of it is just there's a lot of ignorance about what transition really is, and there's a lot of ignorance about what the actual surgeries are and what they produce. I think if people really knew how these operated, they would be a bit horrified and then also a little bit more critical. Use a little bit more critical thinking skills when it comes to to it. But I think just most people just don't know. They just don't know. And the transactivist did a very good job of really downplaying the the surgeries and the the uh that side of it, because uh, yeah, most people are gonna be horrified because they should be horrified because the surgeries are horrifying with really bad outcomes. Very bad outcomes, like it's honestly it's super unethical. The surgeries are super unethical. I don't it's but most experimental.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

It's experimental, like at this point, it's so experimental. And I don't know. I in my opinion, if it's I need to look this way to feel comfortable, like I totally understand that. If there's anyone who understands I need to look a certain way to feel comfortable, like I get it. And I'm totally on board with people feeling as comfortable as they need to feel in their body. Like, if that's how you need to look to to love yourself, like I'm cool with that. And I I totally get that some people will disagree with me about that, like, and I'm cool with that too. As I said, I'm usually like on the fencer about things, but you know, I think that you're always gonna be a in a in a place of uh like a really bad place if you don't recognize your embodiment and who you are. Like you have to acknowledge the truth. If you don't acknowledge reality, right? Yeah. So like you have to be comfortable with being a a trans person. Like I think when you're trying to disregard that, I think that's when you have all this problem because then you're trying to put down the group, like women, for being women, right? I think yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

So it's just it's a it's a real lack of respect for other people.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

Yeah. I don't know. We will see what happens, but I am optimistic too. We're both optimists. But this was a great conversation, Carol. Tell me where is the best place to learn more about you and your podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:57

So basically Substack, that's the only place that that you could find the uh the podcast. Well, the podcast is on Spotify and on like Apple Pod as well. But Substack is like the home you can interact with the podcast there. Like if you wanted to make comments, whatever, or even private messages, message me and uh you'll link it, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:17

So yeah, I will link the I'll look I'll link the the Substack. And yeah, it once again it was great chatting with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:25

Yeah, thank you so much for having me on.